DS: Questions of the art world and money are not that interesting. Theres a lot of money in art. There are a lot of people who use their money to try and shape the world in a particular way. And it takes money to make art. Some people are more willing to make work that doesnt challenge anything because, as Cathy was saying earlier, theyre worried about getting a teaching job. Fortunately, Cathy chose to make the work she needs to make.
I think the question of how change happens and what change youre trying to have happen, is important. The Forensic Architecture piece was great. Im glad that it contributed to Kanderss going, thats fantastic. But if our litmus test is we did A and B happened I mean,can you say that the Freedom Riders directly led to the breaking down of Jim Crow? No you cant, but you can say that was pivotal for the civil rights movement going where it went. Likewise, you cant say that Emory Douglass work directly translated to Black Lives Matter, but you can say that without that work and iconography, the generation that came up afterward and thought about systemic change wouldnt have had the same foundation to stand on.
When Shirin said America is becoming more like Iran: I do genuinely respect the perspective of somebody whos lived in a country where its assumed that if you say certain things, the government can disappear you or kill you. Thats different than the modern U.S. But lets be real, in the United States, ownership of human beings and having individuals do whatever they wanted to do with those human beings was perfectly normal for the first 80 years. It was perfectly normal for lynch mobs to kill people and then go to trial and even admit what they did but then say, Look, were white people, this is what we do, were cool, right? Thats what America is. The art Im most interested in challenges our foundational assumptions whetherthats the AIDS crisis or the Vietnam War or the civil rights movement. Art that changes peoples ideas, that helps them see more prescientlythe world we live in and how it could actually change. Whether that work exists in a revolutionary newspaper or on the streets, whether it exists in providing water for the people ofFlint or in a museum space like the Jacob Lawrence work I nominated, which challenged how people saw enslaved people. The ideas matter tremendously on where your feet are planted. Are you reinforcing the status quo or are you challenging some fundamental supposition of how we see ourselves?
CO: One of things that Dread said thats really important is that even if were all here in our little window boxes on Zoom during a friggin pandemic, is what is collectivity? That its not necessarily about a singular voice or that kind of singularity, so to speak, but its about that collectivity. Its about us as artists and curators and thinkers and writers as we begin to form an opinion of the times that were living in. I teach and Ive been teaching for 30 years now. I constantly hear the concerns of young people, because Im with 18-to 26-year-olds on a regular basis. They really, really feel that it doesnt matter anymore to be an artist. It upsets me that so many of their opinions are like, Oh my god, this is all just too much, you know? Between climate change, global warming and racism, you know, they just feel like, What can I add to it?” I constantly say to them that its about a collectivity in relation to you individually answering the questions that are important to you and then trying to create representation within that. Thats what we have to remember, which is a small bit of optimism within an incredible sea of calamity, so to speak.
RH: That is really heart-rending. Dread, when you brought up the Freedom Riders, I was thinking about how, as they prepared to do the sit-ins, they were performing mock scenarios for themselves. They and other civil rights activists rehearsed things like having someone blow smoke in their face or smash a plate onto the ground. And I think about the choreography it required to prepare to do those actions. Cathy, Im so curious about how we talk about creativity and how we talk about art in the world because those young people were thinking creatively in ways that are perhaps different from artists but still analogous. Were in this moment now where were seeing people of all ages asking what they can do differently. But also what does a world without artists look like? Nobody wants to live in that world, even if we watch Netflix all day. Everything we do to keep ourselves sane, especially in this pandemic, comes back to being an artist.
SN: That makes me think about Iran after the revolution where, you know, we were immediately at war with Iraq, we had this horrific government, we were isolated from the world, the economy was a nightmare, there was oppression, there was no freedom of expression. And oddly enough, the cultural community was completely activated. It was really incredible. It created thisthriving culture. A crisis and were facing every kind of crisis right now, social, political, environmental is actually very conducive to creating great art. This is a moment for transition in American society. For those young students who are disillusioned, considering everything that we are going through and you know, even I, during these last six months, was questioning the value of being an artist anymore. Its no wonder theyre asking those questions. But Im very optimistic that this environment is going to be conducive to more radical work and rethinking what art is outside of just galleries and museums. To find ways in which artists will be more engaged in this society, in their communities, and be far more effective than we used to be.
TLF: Nikil, youre an editor and a writer, but you recently won a Democratic primary for aseat in the Philadelphia State Senate, which would beyour first political office. Can you tell us a little about your perspective?
NS: The staff at the Philadelphia Museum of Art just organized into a public sector union. And the faculty, which includes adjunct facultyfrom the University of the Arts in Philadelphia, are also organizing and forming a union. That comes partly out of a disenchantment, I think. It speaks to what you were saying, Cathy, that these art world institutions, fundamentally, are real estate that they can feel anti-democratic in really material ways, not just cultural ways. So if you feel like theres no point to any of this, maybe the point is actually more horizontal. Its not I need to make it, I need to win as an artist. Because you start to see that winning has costs, and only a few people win and theres a mass of people who are scraping by. Once you start to understand that, once you see that your fate lies with the other people around you, I think you understand some of the radicalism that Shirin was speaking to. I can only speak as a writer and editor and Im not immune to the same forces that are affecting the art world but I think you start to feel like theres a certain meritocratic lie at work here. People start to understand that its not just talent that helps you succeed, that youre completely fractured by your race and class and status. So we need to start taking over institutions and dismantling them so that we can change things.
CO: I think that thats really important to say. One of the reasons people should go into politics and especially why people should vote, is that if we dont use the existing democracy that we have, including the democracy of our voices as artists, then where are we gonna end up? Ive been on the Los Angeles Museum of Contemporary Arts board on and off I left in protest a long time ago but went back on and even though my fellow artists have criticized me, I do think that if all of us stay away from these boards, then what is left? Is it better to be active within it, and creating those discourses, than just throwing our hands up and saying, I cant create change. Im constantly saying to my students, Go ahead, get in there. Look at something from all different sides because theres not any one answer. And change takes an enormously long time, unfortunately.
Dread Scotts What is the Proper Way to Display a U.S. Flag? (1988).Credit…© Dread Scott, courtesy of the artist
TLF: Im wondering: could we define protest art byits response? A lot of the work listed here has prompted censure or outcry. Dread, George H.W. Bush said your first flag work [What is the Proper Way to Display a U.S. Flag? (1988)] was
DS: Disgraceful. Which I thought was a tremendous compliment.
TLF: Can we take the response to some of these works and use that as a prism to look at how effective they are?
DS: In some cases, I think so. Having the president of the United States single out the artwork of an undergraduate student from a Midwestern art school as being disgraceful, was, for me, it was like, Well, if the president doesnt like what Im doing and he knows I exist, I wanna do this for the rest of my life. But I think that work presaged a lot of what we are still talking about now. Look at someone like Colin Kaepernick, whose protest is a redux of that, in a certain sense.
The reaction to a work cant be the sole litmus test. I dont think Act Up would have existed the way it did and had the effect it did without Silence = Death. It shaped how the movement got out in the world, which is really important. So response isnt just the reaction to suppress, its also how its embraced by community. For example, some of Ai Weiweis most interesting work is what the Chinese government hates the most. Hes celebrated in Western art circles as being a Chinese dissonant, and there are ways to commodify that, but I think his most interesting work is when he engaged with the community to list the names of everyone who was killed from the government negligence surrounding the 2008 Sichuan earthquake. His work wasnt just critiqued by the president, it was literally outlawed. Thats significant, but I also think theres really great work that doesnt get that response but is still really important. Especially work that, at various moments in history, concentrates peoples ideas or understandingof something that hadnt really been articulated. Think of the song Ohio by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young or Kendrick Lamars songAlright, which people were singing during the George Floyd protest. Theres a lot of work that has resonance in ways that dontnecessarily connect with the movement but then becomes important.
SN: I havent been back to Iran since 1996 because the government finds my work problematic. I have family there and I always think about how the Iranian government will perceive my work. My critics are the Islamic Republic of Iran, but then I also have art critics in the Western world. So thats been an interesting challenge over the years and Ive learned how to deal with it. Sometimes, I avoid talking to the media because Im worried about my mother and my family in Iran. Ive had to self-censor, even though Im living outside of Iran, because Im afraid of the government and how it will retaliate.
TLF: I want to throw out one last question perhaps its a little naïve but is there a work of art that brings you some sense of optimism for this moment? A lot of the work we nominated hasa lot of anger, but there is also a lot of joy. What brings you joy?
CO: Ill go first. Im not going to pinpoint a work, actually. Im thinking, again, of our collective voice, that collectivity of opinion, and how we reflect upon it, through all different media whether its a newspaper article or a novel or artwork. Im optimistic about the continuation of voices to fight for humanity and justice for all. But I cant pinpoint a piece, because Im hoping for all of it to wash over us in some way.
SN: Im not a painter and Im not an expert on painting, but Marlene Dumas is an artist whose work stirs so much emotion in me. As Cathy said, there are works of art that transcend political, social issues and become more primal in addressing our humanity the pain, the mystery and our collective suffering as well as capturing beauty. Her work moves me and its inexplicable, really. I dont know who she is, Ive never met her, but her work just goes right to my stomach. I think the emotions of her art are very powerful, especially in these times.read more
The 25 Most Influential Works of American Protest Art Since World War II
